Dan Runcie is the founder and publisher of Trapital. Trapital is a weekly newsletter and podcast that covers the world of deal-making by musicians, athletes, and others in the entertainment industry.

Trapital looks at how Timbaland, Pharrell, Serena Williams, and Rihanna leverage their audiences, their marketing savvy, and their creativity to make incredibly large and lucrative deals.

On today’s show, Dan shares the global influence of hip hop as a business force. We talk about digital communities, DAOs, and NFTs. We also talk about how artists and creators are able to own and capitalize on their creations more than ever, and much more.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How to find your niche in the market
• The the day-to-day business of running a newsletter
• How to endear your community to you and each other
• Turning your hobby into a successful newsletter business
  
  

Links & Resources

• Harvard Business Review case study: Beyoncé
• Medium
• Pistil Data
• Casa Verde Capital
• Zack O’Malley Greenburg: A-List Angels
• Westbrook Inc
• Peter Okoye MrP
• Pico podcast episode 007: Zamaan Abbass - Overcoming Obstacles as a Creator
• The Future Beats Show
• Bored Ape Yacht Club
• Pat Flynn
• Follow Pico on Twitter
• Pico
• Follow Chikodi on Twitter

Dan Runcie’s Links

• Follow Dan on Twitter
• Trapital newsletter
• Essay: How Issa Rae Became the Modern Mogul
• Trapital podcast

Episode Transcript

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00:00:00 Dan:

After seeing how trends were starting to shift within the digital media landscape, I was seeing more writers that were starting publications that were focused on a particular niche. That’s when I said to myself, there’s so much talk about what hip hop artists are doing in business, but there’s no publication that is dedicated solely to that.

I’ve done all this writing for all these reputable websites and all these reputable publications. What if I leverage the tools of the internet and did this myself?

00:00:34 Chikodi:

Hello, and welcome to the Creator Business Show. My name is Chikodi Chima, and I am really excited to be joined today by Dan Runcie.

Dan is the founder and publisher of Trapital. Trapital is a newsletter and a podcast where he looks at the world of deal-making by entertainers, musicians, and athletes in the world of hip hop. How people like Timbaland, Pharrell, Serena Williams, and Rihanna are leveraging their audience, their marketing savvy, and their creativity to do deals on an enormous scale.

We also talk about NFTs. We talk about digital communities and DAOs, and we talk about the global influence of hip hop and how it’s a business force, and how musicians today are actually getting to capitalize and own more of the value that they’ve been creating for decades. It’s a really fascinating conversation.

It’s one that taps into my history. I was actually a producer of live shows in Seattle, and I had two terrestrial radio shows. So, maybe it’s not surprising that I’m doing a podcast in 2021, 2022. But this is a great conversation that I really enjoyed. Very grateful to Dan Runcie, and I think you’re going to learn a lot.

So, join us for today’s edition of the Creator Business Show.

Dan, welcome to the show. Do you want to give us a quick intro and tell us what you’re excited about, what you’re working on, and what the future holds?

00:02:00 Dan:

Yeah, Chikodi. First off, thanks for having me. I’m honored to be here. As you mentioned, I’m the founder of Trapital. It’s a media company that I started three years ago, and my mission and purpose is to elevate hip hop. Specifically, the business of hip hop, and really making sure that we can take this culture to the next level, and make sure that the artists that are making business moves in hip hop—the companies that they’re starting—they’re getting the same level of recognition and analysis, and in-depth coverage that you see from companies and finance companies in tech and other sectors.

I’ve been a lifelong hip hop fan. I always believed that some of the business moves that hip hop artists have made have been some of the more revolutionary and inspiring ones. But for so long, the coverage on them was just pretty minimal. It didn’t really go in depth the same way that it did with other the other sectors I just mentioned.

Starting Trapital was an opportunity to elevate that, and doing it specifically for the people that are working in this industry, people that are working in other industries that are partnering with hip hop, especially just given how influential hip hop is, especially over the past few years. Every month or every few weeks it seems like there’s another hip hop artist that’s making a big-time investment starting a company.

This was an opportunity to highlight and elevate that, and the content and what I’ve been able to do and build through that has been great. I think the recognition has been good, too. It’s been well received across the industry. I’ve been fortunate to have been published and receive recognition across many established organizations.

I feel like we’re just getting started. It’s still in the early days, and I’m excited that Trapital can grow as hip hop culture continues to influence, not just in the US, but in the world.

00:03:47 Chikodi:

Thank you. I have so much to say about that, but how did you decide that this is what you wanted to do? Like walk us through the process of actually starting Trapital and then man, I’ve got so much to say about, you know, like you said, these major business moves, so yeah, let’s talk about all about that, but like, let’s talk about you a little bit more and, you know, starting, starting Trapital, like you said there was a gap. Why did you decide I’m the person to fill this gap and, yeah. Just kind of talk us through the genesis.

00:04:14 Dan:

Yeah. So the journey actually started a few years before I even had the idea for travel. So if we go back to 2014, I was in my second year of business school. And a lot of time in business school, we spend breaking down case studies on different companies. And most of these companies are your blue chip companies that are in the Dow Jones or your fortune 500 companies that have been there for awhile.

But there was this one case study that came out that year, that was on beyoncé’s surprise album drops. She released that Beyonce self-titled album in December, 2013 and the industry and business world overall had made such a big deal about it, because this was one of the most recent times that we had seen an artist.

Drop an album without any notice, without any marketing. And in so many ways, the fact that she didn’t do many of the traditional things, gave it even more exposure. And I think it was really a turning point in her career and Harvard business school, Harvard business review specifically had done a case study that broke down what Beyonce had done, no different than how they’ve done case studies on the New York times or Southwest airlines or many other companies that have been around for years.

And I saw how big of an impact that case study had made. It got a bunch of earned media from everywhere. People were buzzing about it. It stuck out to be for two reasons. The case study itself was great. I learned a lot from it and I was inspired by it, but second, it made a big deal because we just didn’t see this type of thing.

Often you didn’t see publications like Harvard going deep into artists themselves. And it wasn’t just them. It was more broadly because up to that point, there would be lists on how well people were earning or the amount of money they were making, but nothing was really breaking down the strategy. And that sparked the thought for me to say, There’s an opportunity here to go deeper and there’s opportunity to have more regular content and more regular analysis.

That’s put out into the world that can give these artists the level of insight and analysis and critiques that they deserve. So I’d started writing on my own at that point, had recently graduated. I was, I’d started a medium page and this is just what BDO might think was starting to buzz a bit. And I said, you know what?

I have some thoughts on the intersections of business and culture, business, and music, business, and sports in other areas that interest me. I didn’t really do much writing before that, but with all of the work I’d done to the business world in past case study analysis, I felt like I had a pretty good shot.

So I was just doing it purely as a hobby. After a few times of doing that, it got picked up by different freelance publications that were like, Hey, we’ll pay you if you want to put this on our website. So of course I think the thought there was okay while I was putting this out for free. Just sharing it with friends and family on social media, let’s expand this a bit.

And that started to grow and snowball to the point where bigger publications and more reputable publications are reaching out, offering more money. And the conversations were getting a bit more interesting. And at this point I was still working full time, but this.

Opportunity here was growing. and I said, you know, there’s could be an opportunity to double down on this.

After seeing how trends were starting to shift within the digital media landscape. I was seeing more writers that were starting publications that were focused on a particular niche. And that’s when I said to myself, there’s so much talk about what hip hop artists are doing in business, but there’s no publication that is dedicated solely to that.

I’ve done all this writing for all these reputable websites and all these reputable publications. What if I leverage the tools of the internet and did this myself,

00:07:49 Chikodi:

Well, it seems, it seems obvious now. yeah. You know, Snoop Dogg, Wiz Khalifa Farell, Dr. Dre. Beyonce. I was reading your post about Esra and all of her, you know, she was a real pioneer, not just in the, you know, as a woman, a black woman, media entrepreneur, but as a social media marketing expert, you know, so I was really liking that breakdown. So yeah, it seems really obvious that that would make sense as a publication, but, you’re the guy.

So how are you monetizing, you know, cause this is the creator business show. We want to talk about monetization. So originally you were freelance contributor and then you said I’m gonna, take this on full time.

So can you talk about some of your, monetization channels?

00:08:36 Dan:

Yeah, so I monetize through, a few channels. So the primary way is sponsorship. So that sponsorship revenue that comes by. Companies that want to sponsor the newsletter. I write, I write a weekly newsletter that goes out to nearly 12,000 readers that are executives working in music, media, and entertainment. Then I also have a podcast as well that interviews many of these same leaders. So the sponsorship packages include both of those and then often can extend to other channels to be able to tap into travel’s broader audience on social channels as well. And then the second revenue stream is, consulting and speaking engagements, and being able to work directly with companies that either want my insights on a particular topic, or I can share thoughts on a deal that they might be working on.

And although I do some of that, I also as well will do speaking engagements, whether it’s a company or a conference that wants me to speak on a particular topic within music, media entertainment, digital media, as well. So those are the main ways that I monetize track.

00:09:41 Chikodi:

And what kind of team do you have?

00:09:44 Dan:

So I’m the sole full-time person. And I have a few folks that help as contractors. So they are helping with the editing and the production of content, both written and with the podcast and the video work as well. And some marketing support.

00:10:00 Chikodi:

That’s fantastic. Fantastic. All right. So let’s talk about these deals that folks are making. I just saw, you know, a couple of days ago that Snoop Dogg’s Casa Verde led a $6.5 million investment into pistol data. I was talking to pistol dad about six months ago. you know, at the time they’re talking about raising much less money.

So somehow Casa Verde got involved, the deal got much bigger and, it happened. So, I mean, that’s just yesterday or this week, you know, it’s just, the pace of dealmaking is so. Fast and furious, but it’s not only that, people like Swiss beets, there’s so, so many musicians, so many artists that I really like Kevin Duran, right.

Did us is doing a spec for the scooter company? I mean, I’m sure you’re tracking every single one of these. These are just kind of like free flowing through my mind, but it’s like the NBA, Andre Iguodala, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry. then you have entertainers and you have Serina Williams and Serena ventures.

It’s just like, you know, the point that I was going to make is it’s not just the frequency, it’s the finesse, it’s the, you know, there’s a certain , you know, about how, these moves are being made.

So, what, what inspires you and, maybe what trends are you seeing? Florida tours.

00:11:24 Dan:

Of course. Thank you. It’s it’s fascinating to see, I know that a friend of mine, Zach O’Malley Greenburg, he wrote this book a couple of years back, put it out right before the pandemic it’s called Avis angels. And he was talking about this trend that you’re saying so many athletes have guide more and more involved with investing.

And I think that’s extended to hip hop artists and entertainers, and more broadly creators and influencers that we’ve seen in the past recent years. So a lot of this had happened years back. We can date back to Shaq, investing in Google nearly 20 years ago and getting in before its IPO. But. Decades later, you have someone like Ashley kosher that gets more involved.

NAS Jay Z, all of these folks are tapping into their influence. And I think we’ve started to see this expand more and more and more because now some of the most famous record labels, the hip hop record labels, in, the music industry are getting more involved with investing as well. And they’re not just thinking about themselves as music.

They’re trying to leverage their influence in doing the same for their artists. And I think it’s great. I think it’s smart because if you are a. We’ve seen so many times when artists have been the ones who either helped a platform grow by bringing their audience on or making it really popular, whether it’s someone like a little bee who was really big on Twitter when Twitter was just starting to accelerate, 10 plus years ago, we saw that as well with what someone like a little NAS X was able to do on Tik TOK, what a DJ Calvin had done on Snapchat years back.

We see this time and time again. I think the difference though, is that now that you’re seeing more of these entertainers be able to have equity in some of these platforms, that they are going to push themselves. That’s where I think the real reward comes in. And that’s what excites me and interests me so much because I think the more and more that we see the Kevin Durant’s, the Serenas and the nausea is backing.

A lot of these companies it’ll make a big difference. Cause I know they’ll put that money to good use.

00:13:18 Chikodi:

Yeah. Getting exponential returns where, for a lot of, a lot of folks just getting a record deal and having a lump sum of money for the first time in their life was pretty extraordinary. But then creating this legacy that a record company owns. And if you don’t own your masters, then whoever, I’m not going to name any names here, but like, Your, intellectual property comes out in the 20 year retrospective, you know, the 50 year retrospective the world tour.

And it’s like, you get nothing for that. So being a marketing leader and being an influencer in the most traditional sense of the word, now, all of a sudden having equity means that you get to go along for the whole ride. so that, that is so cool. so maybe going back to the newsletter, like where are some, some, wins of keeping track of this, and you said you have 12,000 executives.

So that must be a very valuable audience, but like what are some wins that you’re proud of, of content that you created shared with an audience that then turned into deals, turned into relationships, turned into partnership.

00:14:28 Dan:

Yeah, I think that for me, there is a few ways of looking at content because I have the weekly newsletter that does go out and I’m capturing the latest moves that are happening. And that is my thoughts to be able to keep people up to date. So I know that part of the promise and opportunity to travel is making sure that you can stay ahead of the latest trends and things are just moving so fast that it’s valuable to be able to offer that and giving insight more than just a headline.

But knowing that based on how I’m seeing things and based on where things are, I can provide enough so that this can be the five to 10 minute read that an executive can look at or a founder can look at it and say, okay, thanks. I have a understanding. Sometimes they may agree with what I’m saying.

Sometimes they may disagree with what I’m saying, but even if they disagree, it helps reinforce how they might view things. So I definitely see the value in that piece of it. I think though, taking that a step further with how I look at the other side of content, which are the essays that I write, and those are the ones that I hope, and I write them in a way where they can be lasting evergreen pieces that people can go back and back to, and that can hold the weight that they have So for instance, you mentioned the ISA Ray essay that I had written, And that was an essay written almost a year And a half ago at this point, I believe that was spring 2020. And since putting that out, I think that’s served as a reference point For a lot of people that see what the mogul playbook can look like and how they might want to position themselves is also opened up relationships and connections with some of the folks that work with ISA Ray directly and be able to have those conversations. And, you know, I think more of an informal perspective having those back door conversation and say, okay, did I get this part right? Was this part off? And that getting there takes there, but more broadly. Being able to have further conversations about other breakdowns. For instance, I had written an essay about will and Jada Pinkett Smith and how they’ve built up, Westbrook Inc. And that had inspired some streaming services that have reached out and said, Hey, we’re getting more into the creator academy and how you broke down What will Smith and Jada are doing is insightful for how we’re looking at building things. And if they’re seeing that now, I think that’s going to continue to be relevant, especially as the creator economy continues to expand.

So those weed to seek it opportunities, those lead to consulting opportunities and those lead to deeper partnerships and further expansions that I may have for travel down the road. I think it just increases the ability to make moves in a thoughtful and strategic way.

00:17:04 Chikodi:

It’s all about making moves. I mean, it’s just like, when you say making moves, it’s just kind of something that people say casually, but you’re really the thought leader when it comes to like, what is, what is the dollar value of making moves look like in this world? It’s just so fascinating to me.

We’re all like globally. We’re so influenced by hip hop.

I’m liking, you, know, behind you, people who are listening to this, can’t see, but behind your, your right shoulder, you got to a world map and it’s like hip hop really is the most. Powerful creative force that, that connects people all across the world.

00:17:44 Dan:

Yeah, definitely. it’s it’s interesting you say that, cause I’ve often had the conversation with people about what is the most influential cultural force in the world in some folks that hip hop, some folks say Hollywood and just entertainment more broadly. I think the difference though, and this is why I often go back to hip hop.

Is that because this is a culture that expands and mediums, I think primarily it’s audio and given audio just can travel and I think is going to be. Easier to transfer, whether it’s someone identified with the Jay Z Beyonce or a Drake song that can hit folks everywhere across the world, regardless of socioeconomic backgrounds or what opportunities look like from a business perspective there.

Versus if you look at some of the biggest movies that may exist, I think movies or TV shows, sometimes those can be a bit harder to translate internationally and all of those same type of areas. And I think we’ve seen it with hip hop, whether you see the influence that some of these artists have you go around the world, you see them, she had their names and stuff like that.

And I don’t know if that necessarily exists in the same way for all of the biggest movie stars, especially some of the U S centric ones. So that’s why I do think that hip hop’s forced there because it’s not just the audio. As I mentioned, the audio is paramount first, but it’s the fashion. It’s what we’re seeing now in gaming.

It’s how people speak. It’s how people dress and act and the vibe that they have and the influence that it comes from. And that is a culture that I think expands beyond the mediums itself. So that’s why I often go back and remind folks that yes, it’s hip hop. That is the most influential cultural force in the world,

00:19:22 Chikodi:

Yeah. I mean, it’s the attitude, just like you said, it’s the, it’s a way of appearing and showing up in life. That is, you know, even if you don’t necessarily identify with the foundational events that created hip hop, there’s a certain, I don’t wanna sound cheesy here because we’re talking to a very broad audience, but it’s like, you know, there’s a certain rejection of convention wherever, if you’re in Poland, if you’re in Argentina, you know, that’s like that hip hop stands the test of time. I do have a question for you, for, you know, trap it’ll one of the things that we’re seeing in hip hop, which I love personally, is that now Nigerian artists, Ghanaian artists, to an extent, you know, with I’m a piano in, South Africa, that’s now coming back and influencing hip hop in the United States.

Are you seeing any deals, any of the kind of Trapital activity with Nigerian artists, African artists starting to invest in startups, either in Africa or, us and Europe.

00:20:27 Dan:

So that’s something that I do want to track more specifically on what the artists, not just outside of the us, but especially west African artists in Ghana, Nigeria, and how they’re getting tapped in. Because I’m sure the biggest names are probably getting themselves in something, whether it’s someone like a Wizkid, but beyond that, you just look at how their style and how their voice and influence has influenced what some of the biggest artists here have done.

Like you look at Drake’s album views. I don’t know if views comes out the same way of Drake. Isn’t inspired by what he’s hearing in Afro-beats or what he’s hearing from west African artists. So when you think about that and you think about the influence Drake has and how he is now, someone that’s actively investing in all sorts of companies, whether we’re seeing an investing media or we’re seeing we’re invested in food companies, I would love to see the same thing happening for the Nigerian artists and get an artist and to be clear that a lot of this may be happening.

It’s something that I do want to attract more specifically myself. But yeah, I feel like that opportunity in itself is still something that I think is only going to continue to grow.

00:21:33 Chikodi:

Yeah. Well, if there’s anyone who’s probably doing this, as a starting place would be Peter P square because I follow him on, Instagram, not, not, I don’t follow them as closely, but you know, that guy is involved in all kinds of stuff. And I think he’s living in London primarily, yeah, as a, as the first stepping stone into that, that journey, he might be someone to point to more.

But I mean, yeah, it’s just like, again, we’re talking about the speed of hip hop than the speed of culture. It just stands to reason that if you’re a Nigerian artist and there’s crazy startup deals happening right now, every single day in Nigeria and Ghana and South Africa and Ethiopia and Kenya would have you either, you know, sweat equity or putting in a little money to blow up a social app or a FinTech app, it just makes sense.

So what else excites you right now?

00:22:22 Dan:

All, I mean, I am fascinated to see what’s been happening right now with opportunities at web three and specifically in music because. I know that there’s a bunch of excitement that’s happening right now with everyone trying to understand the metaverse. I think somebody’s things were trending, but ever since Facebook changed its name, the flood gates have truly opened up.

And for artists, especially this past year, we’ve seen more platforms that allow artists to sell NFTs, whether it’s a marketplace or just something that facilitates payments or connections with fans, we’re seeing other platforms that enable artists to launch their own tokens and then creating unique experiences and leveraging what’s available through the blockchain technology.

And I think we’re also seeing what artists themselves can look at in terms of business models in virtual worlds and how they can take things up. Because I think that we’re still in the early days, but where I think we will get to eventually is that. Making sure that people realize that yes, the web three is an exciting time with everything happening, but that in itself is not a business model.

You still want to have something that people are going to want to buy. People are going to want to buy time and time again, that adds value whether that’s value in real life or value to them in the metaverse or to their avatars of the metaverse. And I think there is great opportunity to do that. Just given how influential artists star and if they continue, especially hip hop artists, if they continue to be on the forefront of so many technology trends, as we see time and time again, whether it’s ringtones or streaming or other things, it’s always the hip hop artists or social media as well.

It’s always the hip hop artists that lead in to these things. So I’m excited to see. How they take advantage of these opportunities and listen, not everything is going to work. I think even in the past year, we’ve seen some successful NFTE projects. We’ve seen some on successful NFC projects. We’ve seen some where the numbers have been questionable, but we also see in others that it’s quite promising.

And once we are able to go through that phase, you know, different than anything else, we will see a lot of great business opportunities emerge. And I hope that artists don’t only get to lead the forefront, but given the opportunities, now they get upside and they get more of a stake in the things that they are building or in the companies that they are helped grow in by lending their platform to those companies, to help with their customer acquisition and other growth.

00:24:49 Chikodi:

What do you think is working in NFTs for music and creators and where do you think we still need to make.

00:24:56 Dan:

What I think is working is the artists who already have a fan base that supports them directly and has already been engaged in with that. Because Like, anything, I think there is a good amount of friction, at least right now, with opportunities in, more broadly blockchain related opportunities. So if you are an artist that you’re trying to lock something, if you already have artists, if you already have a fan base. that’s for lack of a better word, used to jumping through a few holes or going through a few challenges to get your products or to get the latest thing you have. or they already buy limited additions of what you have.

Like, for instance, there’s. The hip hop, collective out of Buffalo Griselda, the three of those wrappers there, they have done quite well selling high-end vinyls and high-end merchandise that is unique to their fan base. If they were able to take that excitement onto something like MTS, I think it could work quite well.

Just given the fan base that they have. They’re mostly reaching, an older hip hop audience relative to a lot of the 20 something year old rappers. These guys are all in their late thirties. Some of them maybe even the early forties, I hadn’t used to double-check the rage, but be able to tap into that.

I think they would serve up quite well. I think on the flip side though, The challenge and what we see for the things that don’t work are a, the artists that are just launching something on the blockchain, or just launching a NFT project for the sake of it. And I think we’ve seen, some major label artists outside of hip hop launch projects, and they got a good amount of headlines, but when you actually talk to people behind the scenes, they didn’t sell as well.

That’s because they never necessarily had a fan base that looked at them for that. These are people that were backed in, I think, largely supported by the majors and as helpful as that could be, if you aren’t currently at the top of the game, that. It’s hard to leverage the fan base the same way effectively that a independent artist that even though they may have a smaller base, every one that is rocking with them is with them.

So when you have this more unique thing, like the NFC and some of these major artists, it isn’t going to quite work unless there is a true value prop. How does this add value? What is the thing that you’re solving? You can’t just put any old album that you have up and throw a high dollar amount on it and expect it to happen.

I think. Another person we could talk about on the plus side of this is Nipsey hussle. This is an example I’ve often talked about. The late rapper had launched a a hundred dollar mixtape. eight years ago he was ridiculed for it, but it lined up with everything he had done as an independent artist and it succeeded.

Then he followed up with a thousand dollars mixtape and achieve a few years later. And if he had been alive for what we’re seeing now with NFTs, that would have been right up his alley. This is literally the type of thing that he was building towards. So I think eventually we may get to a point where it can work for every artist, but in the early days, just with the amount of friction, just with the amount of opportunities that are there, the artists that already have a fan base that’s bought in will be most successful on that front.

00:28:07 Chikodi:

Yeah, that’s a really good point is if they’re not checking for you for these types of drops and frequency, then they’re not all of a sudden going to set up a crypto wallet, fund it and then buy your albums and NFT just because you have, you know, like as a publicist. Sure. I can, sell that, but people aren’t going to buy it.

00:28:28 Dan:

Exactly. And especially if you look at how drop culture works in other areas of Merck and other areas of retail, a company like Supreme, it took years for them to get to the point where people are going to line up outside of their stores for some unique high price item. You look at something like easy.

It took years until Yeezy could sell the mass market sneakers and sell million dollars or a million dollars, a million dollars worth of sneakers in a, in a drop that takes time to get there. And that’s what I mean by the fan bases and the customers that are bought into that. If you just go launch that it’s not necessarily going to work.

So some of those economics and the scarcity and the rarity of leading into that hype beast culture, I think also translates well with what can work effectively with NFL.

00:29:17 Chikodi:

You have to invest in the relationship with your community. You have to really have a community. And, you know, I was talking to a really good friend of mine on one of the recent podcasts, DJ complexion, and he has the future beat show and he just got picked up for a show on the BBC. And, you know, he has a really engaged community.

I was telling him like, you know, people would buy your NFTs. I was wearing the shirt, they did a merchandise drop, but you know, based on the, complications of life, it’s not easy to do a merchandise store. Very often, but I would have bought multiple of the shirts if they were even available.

And he sold that really quickly.

But if he had NFTs, if he decides to do that, I’ve been listening to his radio show for at least eight years. I would a hundred percent figure out a way to do. I mean, if I wasn’t more, knowledgeable, like I am, I’m pretty knowledgeable in crypto blockchain, but if I wasn’t and he was putting up an NFT, I would buy it.

But that’s because I have an eight year history with him.

00:30:17 Dan:

Right. You’re bought in. You understand what he’s about? You want to, part of it is the support, but part of it’s also the value that you expect to get. And I think that’s so key with all this stuff, right? You can’t just spark up and expect these things to succeed. This is why so many people talk about building audience.

First products. If you have the fan base that you have, the folks that are built in, like you said, you’re following this, creator that has been, or rather you’ve been following for the past eight years. Yeah. This, this is going to make you more likely. I mean, that doesn’t mean you’re going to buy everything they dropped, but it increases your willingness to pay,

00:30:52 Chikodi:

But if it’s scarce, then someone’s going to buy it. Right. And, you know, what’s, what’s really interesting about DAOs, you know, decentralized autonomous organizations is that when you buy in, you are contributing to a community. And so there’s some of these NFT projects, board aid, yacht club, crypto punks, et cetera, but specifically a board, a yacht club.

They’re saying, if you buy this, then you get entry to shows social events and things that other people cannot because they don’t own it. You can’t counterfeit and NFT. And so there’s this identity, there’s both the physical, not the physical, but the visual identity of having a board ape. And then there’s the community participation.

Which is really fascinating, but that goes back to your earlier point is like, if you don’t have community, if you don’t have audience, if you don’t have some kind of invested me as an audience, if I haven’t invested in the project in the first place, then I’m not going to there’s not going to be any sustainable value of just putting something up on the blockchain.

00:31:58 Dan:

Right. And I think with that too, look at board eight yacht club, they have recently had two new music initiatives that have come out in recent weeks. One of them is universal music group had a law, had announced this new group called kingship. And it is a collection of characters from the board of yacht club.

And we’ve now seen Timberland do the same thing. He has this new company called APN productions and he launched this new group called the zoo. And he also has a group of characters with a board at yacht club. And just like you said, it’s going to give them access to all of the unique fan experiences. If a fan is able to buy a token.

And it will be interesting to see how that plays out, because obviously we’re talking brand new things where there is a certain community of folks that have risen and driven the value of board AP op club to have exploded the way that it has in 2021. How does that translate to the people who will be listening to that music and the people that will be supporting it from that perspective?

That’s still to be determined, right? Cause I feel like there’s this a bit of a mix there where people, of course are buying in for the status symbol and in many ways, owning a board ABI club is a signal that you are someone that is. Ahead of the curve with regards to web three and NFTs and other rare things that are available.

However, what will that look like for a group that had a lot of ways would be managed the same way that a record label is? And of course, or not necessarily the same without a record label, is there a group the same manage the same way that a record label would advantage any other group? And you’re trying to find the fan base, is that music going to resonate with the current people that are buying it, how do you then tap into a new audience?

And I think these things can happen, but that’s what I’m going to be following a bit, because it’s fascinating and things are just changing so much, but I do think there’s potential.

00:33:52 Chikodi:

Maybe you followed this. I don’t, I can’t remember the name right now, but she did a fractional album. So there’s fractional ownership of the album.

And there was only one album made as an NFT, but instead of, oh, I own the album, you know, opening up to the community so that thousands of people could contribute $5, $20, $50, and then own a share of the profits of the album as one in Ft, as opposed to 10,000 album copies. And

00:34:24 Dan:

Right.

00:34:24 Chikodi:

Way to tap into the community.

00:34:26 Dan:

Interesting. Yeah. I heard about something like that and the name is escaping me because I do remember seeing this, but yeah, I think that just shows how flexible these things can be. Right. Because if you do have a Dal, you can empower them to do, you know, crazy unique things. Right now we’re seeing a dowel get together to try to buy a copy of The U S constitution.

It’s going to be very fascinating to see what that can lead to. And I think in a lot of ways that serves as both a signal for what can be possible a month earlier, we saw a Dow by a rare, a, not even a rare, the single version of album, once upon a time in Shaolin. And of course it was owned by the government before and there, was another, person that had owned it.

And there was some criminal behavior there that had led to that. But I think it’s fascinating to see what will happen now that that group the Dow is owning their sin. There’s kind of a interesting. Comparison there, because on one hand, I’ve often told people that in many ways, Wu Tang clan is what the original DAOs.

If you want to look at this decentralized autonomous organization where you have each of these rappers, do, we they’re distinct things, but they do come together for one of the most classic albums of the nineties in all of music and with everything else they’ve continued to do after that. And the influence that they’ve had, and then them, when they launched this album and released it, this album in a lot of ways was a response to them.

Feeling like streaming had devalued their music. That’s why they had worked on this project and they wanted to sell one copy. And that was their way to look back and say, Hey. In the Renaissance, this is how we value art. We want to do the same thing. So it’s admirable to see how they do that. And obviously it being purchased by Dow that who knows maybe they will take it and sell it as the NFT that involves some type of fractional ownership.

Maybe they will have several NFTs that are selling particular parts of it is a full circle moment. And I think it will be cool to see how more of that stuff plays out to.

00:36:29 Chikodi:

Absolutely. I was talking to my good friend, Larry last night, shout out Larry. You’re listening about how, you know, we traded baseball cards. And then, you know, when I was probably either transitioning from elementary to middle school, there’s one Tamagotchi came out, it’s like, oh, a virtual pet, you know, and then Pokemon cards and things like that.

We got it. You know, we, we understood. Maybe it’s not a Renaissance high art, but it certainly is understandable. And so for, for those of us who grew up with, with these kinds of ideas of what culture is collecting NFTs, the value associated with it, that all makes perfect sense. So there’s, there’s hundreds of millions of people alive today.

I would even venture to say billions of people who it’s not a foreign concept to the technology, don’t necessarily have to understand how all of the technology works. Just to get that, Hey, this is, this is how culture is being shared. This is how communication this is, how communities are being formed.

00:37:33 Dan:

Exactly. And that’s why it’s ironic. One of the common pushbacks that you’ll hear from people that, may criticize that FTS is that, oh, well, I can just hit right. Click save. I can just do this and put this as by avatar my social media photo. And it’s like, yeah, you could do that No different than you could buy a tops or upper deck trading card of Ken Griffey Jr. And make your own cardboard copy of that and get it printed on some glossy big and make it look identical. You can do that too. That doesn’t mean it’s real. So, so much of that, I think still stays with us. We knew what it was like to collect rare things. You mentioned, Tom. God, it makes me also think of Pokemon when Pokemon had really blown up.

And there was someone that had the specific version of the game that you had to try to trade with in order to collect all 150 Pokemon. The way they did that, I think was masterful in a lot of ways because it just incentivize the purchase. It made it have this collective. Way of playing with each other in a way that just didn’t exist, especially with the hand-held game boy toy.

And you see that continue to expand. So, so many of these things I think are ingrained. I think BD babies is another aspect of this, right? How many, you know, rare copies of the princess, Diana BD, baby, or some of these other ones that were quite unique at the time, this is just the digital and metaverse version of these things.

And we’re going to continue to see more of that.

00:38:59 Chikodi:

You just reminded me, actually, I have a Ken Griffey Jr. Chocolate bar, from his rookie season and maybe the third pack of baseball cards I ever bought in my life. I got to Ken Griffey Jr. Rookie card, and it was a FLIR rookie. So I might’ve traded it for a Randy Johnson, card.

00:39:16 Dan:

Okay. I mean, there were both murders at the time, so.

00:39:20 Chikodi:

I think this was actually when he was on the expos.

So, even earlier, but yeah. The value of things really is in people’s belief and tying it back to Trapital. It’s like people believe in entertainers, musicians, athletes, because they see them doing these incredible things. So just there that shining humanity creates value in and of itself.

If you can’t convert it into, oh, this is dollars. It’s just like, there’s that human emotion. Like, you can’t put any price tag on human emotion because it’s the most irrational thing. But the world moves based on emotion.

00:40:01 Dan:

Definitely. Yeah. And I think even something, the, one of the bigger hip hop events that. had happened this year, you look at Kanye west and the listening parties that he had hosted across the country in different cities. Previous music that was released. And there was no promise even that he was going to release new music and you saw him sell so many tickets and merchandise and sell out full on football stadiums, worth of people to do that.

That was a huge display of power. And I think that a lot of ways is why he has had the success with easy and other things that said, this is something I’ve talked about a lot. Is that being a big name, celebrity or entertainer in many ways, it can get you the access that it can get you in the door. But if you want to build something sustainable, you still need to have a sound business around it.

You still need to be adding value in some unique way. And most of the biggest and most influential artists out there that are now succeeding in business, I’ve had some early challenges or failures before they got there. It takes time, no different than a second time or a third time founder. Much more likely to succeed, given the things that they learned the first time around.

And there is, I think, a humility that comes with that, but also grounds us in the hard work that’s required to get these things off the ground.

00:41:22 Chikodi:

And so when you’re cataloging the moves being made by these folks, do you call them trap lists or, you know, like Serena Williams or, you know, for Allie or anyone or, or, do you have a name for them broadly?

00:41:35 Dan:

So I don’t have a name for them broadly in terms of the folks making these moves. it’s funny. I did, in the past, I had used that term referring to, folks that are either reading or subscribed to travel content, but not for the folks that are actually making investments. I’ve definitely done that more. So, you know, tracking the people who are making the big moves. And, you know, I do think that there could be a place to release some of that information, but doing it in a way that I think is unique. I mean, I think there are other publications that do their annual lists or their net worth lists and stuff like that.

So if I was to have something out there, I think having, you know, the unique branding would be effective, but wanting to do it in a way that I think is true and ties back to what traps.

00:42:16 Chikodi:

Yeah, well, you know, pat Flynn smart, passive income, just multi, multi skew creator. One of the things he says about building communities, when you give the community a name, then they feel connected to one another. And that again just goes to Dows and NFTs is like, okay, well we’re the board apes. So all of a sudden, just having a name to refer to yourself creates value and creates connection. but you know, going back to Who was making the best moves right now, you know, in 2021, who have you been most impressed with in terms of their deal-making ability, the creativity, brought to bear and the return on investment.

00:42:56 Dan:

I think that the person that I think about a lot, when I think about 2021 is. I think that we’ve seen some success. I think we’ve seen some challenges, but I think we’ve continued to see things rise up specifically with the success he saw, how successful both Fetty, beauty and Savage Vinny were. She was able to get an additional investment from gold Goldman Sachs to help boost it further and really leading into the media to help expand that.

And that’s why it wasn’t a surprise when it came out that she had both billion dollar brands, own equity in both of them. And therefore she herself was now a billionaire and continuing to rise up that rank. And that’s just fascinating, especially when you look back to where she was 10 plus years ago, nearly bankrupt due to a shady accountant, but she was releasing albums year after year after year.

Now we’re in this position where. We’re almost coming up on six years since she had released her last album, but her business career and success has just taken off since then. So it has been this interesting switch. And I think especially this past year, granted, he did have some hiccups there. last year she had launched a Meson under, LVMH, and that’s a Louis Vuitton, Moet Hennessy.

And with them, she at one, it’s a luxury fashion brand and the fashion brand is named Fenty. They didn’t end up clicking and they eventually decided to pause the Meson. And I think there’s a number of reasons why it didn’t work. It didn’t necessarily have that same affordable inclusivity identity that hadn’t worked so well for Fenty beauty and for Savage Fenty.

So I think when you look at her and everything that she’s been able to do and still, you know, take that as, you know, a small L but still continues to grow these bigger and bigger brands and leverage her influence. That’s what it’s all about. And especially just given the career trajectory as well. She’s the person that I look back on as 2021 and being like, yeah, this was a big year.

00:44:59 Chikodi:

Yeah. And, and that’s, that’s amazing. I mean, Kim Kardashian coming a billion, maybe it was 2020, but you know, on the one hand I’m aging myself here, but it’s like on the one hand. Getting to a billion dollars is so phenomenal. And then on the other hand, when you look at how big the economy is and how influential hip hop and entertainment is, it’s like, well, billion is you’re you’re do, if you have that much sway over global culture, it’s fascinating.

It’s like, that’s really, you know, who’s going to be the first or maybe there already is a $10 billion entertainer, like Kanye west is multi-billions and Jay Z and Beyonce between them are multiple billions as well.

And then the value of entertainment that they’ve created is almost hard to calculate.

00:45:48 Dan:

Yeah, I think that we’ll see it eventually it’s going to happen. And, you know, I know that sometimes these numbers can be a bit hard to nail down specifically. I know, that Forbes And other outlets do what they can from a due diligence perspective. But at the end of the day, it is so hard to get a accurate and public picture, especially given the power that it can have and given to the desires that a entertainer may have to make sure that their net worth is either in some cases higher than it may actually be because they want to present it that way or in some cases lower as well.

And I think, you know, Kanye is challenges with the companies that have reported on his net worth have. Widely reported. And I think that’s another case of those, right? But that said, if these entertainers are able to get the level of buy-in and influence and not just, they have to buy an influence, I think they have the influence.

If they are able to monetize that influence further, it can be quite powerful. Kanye recently done an interview on drink champs. And one of the things that you talked about in so many words was, yes, I may be a billionaire now, but you think of how many, like? tens or even hundreds of billions that I may have made. Def jam or Adidas or potentially gap looking at these deals that is very real. And I think every artist has their version of that. I know Cardi B has said similar where she may be getting, you know, a seven, $5 million bag, but she wants to know, okay, what does that overall bag look like? How could they get more in that? And I think the more that we talk about these things, the more that I think these companies are naturally going to lend their influence or not necessarily their influence, but lend more equity and opportunity to these artists that really make these platforms what they are. And I think the more that we’ll see that we’ll see more artists getting into that $10 billion or plus, and really getting into that space of wealth generation.

00:47:41 Chikodi:

Yeah. You know, it’s, we’ve been talking about NFTs a lot, but one of the really interesting things about programming and NFT is that you can actually keep a royalty. So anytime it trades hands, you then as the artist and creator get something. So again, to that question of, I might have gotten $5 million or $7 million, or I might have a billion, not me, but I might have a billion dollars to generated a billion dollars for myself.

But how many, how many billions of dollars has my work created for, you know, big sneaker manufacturers and record companies and.

Just that influence. And then also I’m just thinking, like, if you capitalize it, so it’s like if you’re Adidas and all of a sudden your deal with, Kanye west generates multiple billion dollars, then you can go issue a bond or you can go take out a loan against that and make more money.

So it’s not just the initial value of the dollar, but it’s like the, having liquidity and what that does.

00:48:44 Dan:

Yeah, definitely.

00:48:45 Chikodi:

Yeah. So fascinating. So

Fascinating. so are you a, are you using Pico.

00:48:51 Dan:

I am. Yeah. So I am using Pico primarily for email sign-on and, being able to have people when they sign up, they can go into the email funnel that enables in. Yeah. I’ve I’ve enjoyed the tool. I think it’s been great to work as well with, some of the folks on leadership and guidance and know them and really behind what they’re trying to build.

I think that there are a lot of business models and there are a lot of ways that creators are making money. But I think what Pico does well is that you’re able to have everything on one particular. Platform. And a lot of it could integrate and work nicely with a lot of the other things in the stack for a, some of the specialty is writing a newsletter or has a podcast like I do.

Right. There’s so many interchangeable parts. You’re trying to get them together, but how can you bring it together? so that’s one thing that I think Pico does a good job of.

00:49:46 Chikodi:

And what are you, what are your, you know, what is your audience asking for more of cause that’s, you know, one of the things I think that, is really fascinating about Pico is like, Hey know your audience, right? So, based on that, what are you hearing?

What are you, what kind of engagement is your audience, giving you that says, Hey, this is the next thing.

00:50:05 Dan:

Yeah. So I think the audience wants a few things, right? the audience wants even more of the deep dives. They want to read more of those profiles. I think that was one of those things where you create them as much as you can, but you want to make sure that there’s a balance, right? Because I want to make sure the quality is high.

I want to make sure this, these can be evergreen stories and breakdowns that can stay there and not just benefit the business overall, but can continue to add value for people. So they want more of those same thing with the podcast interviews. I’ve been fortunate to have great guests that are leaders in this space that are building and many of the same people that I’ve written about before or done breakdowns on have come on the podcast.

And we’ve gone in more depth about what they’re doing, and we can have a different type of conversation that they likely wouldn’t have on another platform. So that’s an opportunity to do that. And I think they also want to see. Where can they continue to learn from trap it’ll or continue to build with capital in a more, not just thoughtful by, in a more deep way, where to, what does that look like on an education side?

What does that look like? Especially given the investments and other business deals on tracking, what does it look like from that perspective? There’s a lot of opportunity there. So the more that. not just necessarily going into everything because no different than the folks I recover. You still need to be strategic and pick your moments when you’re building something out.

But knowing that I can be flexible and lead into things when the timing is right. So that’s what I like most, it’s no different than how I break down the artist themselves. It’s not that there’s necessarily right answers because this is strategy. At the end of the day, there’s trade offs. There are, there could be business and non-business related decisions to make a move in a particular area.

But there is a, there is a reward for being speed for the speed that you can execute something on. And that nimbleness of being able to do it thoughtfully and in a way that makes sense. And the more that I can continue to do that, I think the more successful Trapital will continue to be.

00:52:03 Chikodi:

Absolutely. Absolutely. so in 2022, what are you excited about for trial?

00:52:09 Dan:

Yeah. So for me, it’s continuing to build out the content. I. Grateful for what I’ve been able to put out there, but I want to be able to do more. I want to be able to put out more deep dives. And I think a lot of that comes with being able to leverage help in particular areas to make things even stronger, whether that’s from a packaging perspective or being able to use more diagrams or visuals.

I still think that that is a space where I can continue to build and develop from that perspective. I also know that from a podcast perspective. Yeah. You know, I want to be able to have the people who are taking this culture to the next level. I’ve been grateful for the great guests that I’ve had. And I want to continue to build on that and be flexible with that too.

And I think whatever the future lies ahead for me, whether it is something that could be revolved in education, something that could be involved in investing, being able to take those opportunities where they come. That’s what excites me. The most, and, you know, I think more than anything with those and knowing that each of those things do, does take time, be able to expand things when the, when the time is right.

I see this as a opportunity to build, I think not just a nimble, but a smartly run company where I can leverage my best skillsets. I can outsource the things that may not necessarily make sense, but I think we’ve seen not just in the people I cover how influential it can be when people follow a particular identity or a particular personality.

So me being able to do that myself, knowing that as much as people had very reading trap it’ll they also want to know, okay. I wonder what Dan thinks about this. I wonder what Dan thinks about that. So my ability to deliver that on a quality level and just tapping into the other ways that the audience is trying to grow and take advantage of the opportunity.

That’s where the sweet spot is for me. So yeah, that that’ll be, I think a big focus. I mean, that’ll be the primary focus for me until I tried to,

00:54:10 Chikodi:

Nice. Nice. Oh, I’ll ask you one, one final question, but what is the, your non-obvious connections? Are always so fascinating. So what’s a non-obvious connection or a non-obvious, deal-maker a non-obvious creator that, really blew you away in 2021.

00:54:28 Dan:

Non-obvious creator. let’s see. So someone in thinking of someone that may have done a really good job with something that people may not have necessarily thought,

00:54:40 Chikodi:

I came out of left field, but then when they showed up, they’re like, oh, okay. he’s passed, but ASAP yams, you know, he was like the kind of business guy for ASAP mob. so, if he had done something big, I’d be like, well, he’s always been

There with these guys, you know? but is there, is there an of, 2021 that really surprised.

00:55:01 Dan:

Yeah, I’ll say that one person that I wouldn’t say this person necessarily surprise me, but because I’ve been following what they do. And, but one person that I do think got a bit more recognition, in 2021 was NBA young boy, and he’s a rapper from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and he’s, someone who has dominated YouTube and has really doubled down in one medium.

And I think what’s fascinating about what he’s done is that he actually showed up in the top 10. I think billboard had this top 10 on the artists that had made the most money combined with, recorded revenue and touring in the past year. And of course, a lot of those results were heavily skewed because.

There just wasn’t as much touring given the pandemic and shutdowns of the past year. But even with that said, if you are showing up on the top 10 of that list, and you’re not necessarily someone that as a household day, more like that, that is pretty remarkable. And I think he’s continued to grow and develop there and how he’s been able to in many ways, create this engine of YouTube Cotsen, where he’s dropping videos all the time, shopping music all the time, and he’s staying within his lane.

Just putting this content out there. And I think in some ways, one of the reasons he’s probably stayed and been as successful as he has been on YouTube is because he may have had challenges getting deals elsewhere because he’s definitely had some legal issues and some problematic transgressions with some of his run-ins with the law.

But that, I think we’ve also seen is why YouTube has been a home for a lot of these people, because the platform can be much more lenient on those things and you don’t necessarily rely on major distributors to make that happen. And I think we’re likely going to continue to see that grow. And in some ways I think he has more in common how he runs his business with other YouTubers than he might with a lot of other rappers.

And I think that’s fascinating because I think as artists really double down and get known for different platforms, we’re going to see more and more of that. So would it quite say he came out of left field, but I think that’s one person that given their spot on that list, a lot of people were like, oh wow, that’s definitely, you know, worthy of, acknowledged.

00:57:10 Chikodi:

And that’s just emblematic of this completely new paradigm we’re operating in where? Yeah. YouTube sensation to billboard top 10, if you’re on the billboard list, that means that you are doing something in a big, big level. So,

00:57:25 Dan:

Definitely.

00:57:26 Chikodi:

Well, that’s fantastic. Fantastic. I mean, I can have this conversation for, for quite a while, and I imagine that, running a a media shop, you don’t have forever to talk, so I’ll let you go.

And yeah, we’ll stay in touch because this is just so fascinating. You know, I had a long ago, like 20 2003, I had, two, terrestrial radio shows doing hip hop music in the Seattle area.

And I was actually a music producer or a live show producer back in like 2003, 2004. And so I knew then the potential and just the, the global reach and when CD baby was a thing, I used to reach out to musicians all across the world and be like, Hey, send your CDs to our radio station. I’ll play you on the air.

My space was doing this thing, but I wasn’t really checking on my space for music. And then one year later, wow. I was already in New York at that point. yeah. So I’ve been following this, for a long time. So, you know, it’s just so awesome to see that, Trapital needed to exist and you’re doing it.

00:58:29 Dan:

No, thank you. I really appreciate that. That’s really cool. Yeah. That’s awesome. Didn’t know that, but yeah, that’s why I’m here.

00:58:35 Chikodi:

Well, Dan, thank you so much for joining us today on the Creator Business Show.

I really enjoyed talking with you about creator-led projects and communities, and how DAOs are really bringing forward behaviors that we are used to in the past, collectibles, and that excitement and emotion. We also talked about the billion dollar evaluations that some of these creators are getting for their body of work.

And, you know, we’re going to see more of it.

Before we let you go, how can people get in touch with you? Who would you like to hear from?

00:59:12 Dan:

Yeah. So, if you heard this and it’s resonated with you, especially if you are interested in hip hop, you work in the music industry, or even if you work outside the music industry. I think we’ve seen many brands and other companies, and even just people that are hip hop fans really get a lot of value out of this. That has made me feel secure in the work that I’ve been doing.

So, if you are interested, go to Trapital.co and sign up for the newsletter. Also, if you’re listening to this, you probably listen to podcasts, as well. So search Trapital on whatever podcast feed you’re listening to, and you’ll see the weekly episodes that I put out each week with business leaders who work in music, media, entertainment, and more.

00:59:57 Chikodi:

Again, it’s Trapital.co for the newsletter sign up, and the Trapital podcast wherever podcasts can be accessed.

Dan, thank you so much. We wish you a really abundant 2022. I look forward to staying in touch, and again, thank you for joining us on the Creator Business Show today.

01:00:16 Dan:

Likewise. Thanks so much for having me.

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